From: ingah (Original Message) Sent: 4/17/2003 9:05 PM
hey people help me figure this one out!
when does life begin? At conception or at birth ,and if life starts at conception then isnt abotion murder?
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From: da-pain Sent: 4/24/2003 1:02 PM
Since we know the law is "inconsistent", can be "inadequate", "insufficient" and possibly take on "double standards", can we just give in to this; one of u guys mentioned, "the blind leading the blind". With such a threat, is it wise to kick God out of the abortion case?. I hear whatever the law fails to measure up to, it is for our good;; what truth is in this considering we [including those who write the script] can all be corruptible beings. Surely should it be the "secular or the religious law" to determine when life begins? though man can choose to corrupt both. If we 4got about the above two and embraced "God's law" doesn't it regard abortion as murder throughout the spectrum of faiths?... If we refer to the foetus as a "thing" do the mothers take the same stand? how we state/pronounce our ages, matters less since there is no standard unit for this, i may choose to mention my age at my next birthday while medi may choose to state his as per the last birthday, it all goes for age afterall, may be this explains the unexplained 9months. How can we leave God out of this, and shortly thereafter declare "we can't even call it a name, it is just in God's hands" which God? the same God who we wanna keep out of it, I doubt He can be excluded. Is our very corruptible nature being revealed in this too, when we dont want to include God when His results dont bring us much comfort but choose to give him the platform when it is all playing in our favour.What does leaving to God what belongs to God mean in the abortion-case? could it mean leaving him to terminate a life at His own timing since He is the giver of life afterall? [or atleast i believe].
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From: ingah Sent: 4/24/2003 2:38 PM
hey
1: no ones life or life to be is at risk!
2: Gali, if the brain dead are better of being organ dornors, then depending on your defination of brain dead the un-born child is even less usefull. ie. cant donate organs.seeing as how both the child and the brain dead can acomplish about the same does this make abortion any more acceptable.
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From: Gali Sent: 4/24/2003 3:39 PM
Ingah,
You are forcing me to argue from an angle I'd rather not but I will go ahead for argument's sake.
The unborn child is infinitely much more important because there is an opportunity cost in this child...who knows..he could be the next Einstein, the discoverer for the AIDS or cancer cure, the child that bring happiness to your life, or for some of you, your future wife. Now for the brain dead person, the only place left for their bodies is to start manufacturing oil (which in itself could be a loooooooooong term benefit).
PS: I'm sorry if I sound a little too cynical.
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From: BALA Sent: 4/24/2003 8:41 PM
What I know is that at least here in the US, as soon as those little babies are aborted, their argans are harvested immediately and made available on the market. This is big business here in the US and it is probably one of the reasons why the LAW favors abortion. In any case, our journeys began at conception. If our parents had been too loose on this issue, the probability that some would not be here today (due to abortion) is not zero.
Moreover, the process of "PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION" is literally cold-blood murder cause they have to crush the child's head just before it comes out. In that... if the head is crushed while it is still in birth canal, even if the rest of the body has come out, this is not considered murder.
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From: da-pain Sent: 4/25/2003 1:25 PM
I hear the aborted child could the the eistein of 2moro or the discoverer of the h.i.v n cancer cure, wawww!!!! now that is touching, and it can surely prompt someone to reconsider. Am just wondering what the feeling would be if the child is possibly gonna turn out to be the kony, hitler, sadam or chemical Ali' of the days of my grandchildren. Is it convincing enough to use that probability platform to argue the abortion-case or we need to just be still n know it is murder.
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From: MSN Nicknamemedi800 Sent: 4/29/2003 3:20 PM
This message has been deleted due to termination of membership.
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From: Ed AliG Sent: 4/30/2003 6:59 AM
>>"if am in school say S4 and i got pregnant unwillingly(its always so or unwantedly) i will resort to abortion
>>for so many reasons that u all know. Gene people abort not coz they want to but they find themselves in a fix! so they abort.
I agree with medi on the part of "unwillingly" cuz that will be something like rape, right? which is not always the case as my friend medi would want us to believe. But that part of "unwantedly" man I personally believe that by the time someone becomes sexually active they are aware of consquences are to come so for someone to say that they are in a fix cuz they got sexually involved and ended up with an "unwanted" pregnancy honestly people ought to be responsible for their actions. And it is issues like abortion being an acceptable thing by the law thats making people feel less and less responsible for their actions.
>>Now terming that abortion and hence murder might be absurd. Do u think this person aborting really intended to kill the foetus?
I think so. When one makes up her mind to have the abortion they know they have actually made up their mind to kill the foetus, so did they intend to kill the foetus? yes, otherwise there is no other way to abort, if the intention is to abort then the intention is to kill the foetus.
>>it`s a question of fact and law. Have u looked at the circumstances,
This takes me back to someone being responsible for their actions, they are in a fix and no one denies that but how many get into the fix not knowing that it is a possible outcome of their actions and in any case whether in fix or not that don't nobody the right to determine whether another person should live or not (now life has began after conception)
>>and what are the advantages visa vis disadvantages of aborting this unwanted, bastard or child?
>>If u bore such child he will be a bastard in many beliefs and may not enjoy benefits/ rights like the rest."
Just imagine you were that child and here you are given two options; to live a life where guys are calling you a bastard and all that other stuff you were explaining or not to live at all, I guess I don't even need to ask what choice one would take.
Anyway as this thread goes on I begin to see that actually life begins after conception cuz like we all know that life has mob stages and that whole cycle begins with conception so terminating that process whether it is three days, four months 1 year or 12 years it still is termination of life otherwise reffered to as murder in some circles. Back in the day if an S4 girl conceived, she dropped out of school to attend to the new responsibility she had undertaken (this had its own zibs but focusing on the subject it was a right thing I mean you make a choice you live with its consequences just like in many other situations in life)
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From: da-pain Sent: 4/30/2003 4:01 PM
some of us have seen our parents swim against tides to put a loaf on table. It worries me big time when someone mercilessly points out that if ma mummy was wiser and better advised, she should have aborted me. I think this in the first place is evasion of responsibilities and it one reason many people abort. you people, medi and I all know that if a person is determined, they can manage their family no matter the size, wamma medi--am i lying?? and on second thought do you think if someone feared for their child ever living in need, they are justified to kill them...surely???? did i hear someone say sharia; its the best??? honestly no comment for now, ladies first or someone on their behalf!!!!
[[ typical afaghanistan breakfast; heroin, ashes and any other drug toppings, lunch; heroin, ashes n any other weeds, supper; heroin, ashes etc, ;; snacks; opium, heroin and any other weeds....what do these people do when they are high on these substances..unstoppable gene..ba guy can we use afaghanistan for an example for anything good..i dont know let me 4ne a friend, coz audience says no, but am not sure]]
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From: ingah Sent: 5/1/2003 12:40 AM
Is it me or do the guys have alot to say. A non-male prespective would be nice.
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From: Gali Sent: 5/1/2003 10:36 AM
[[ typical afaghanistan breakfast; heroin, ashes and any other drug toppings, lunch; heroin, ashes n any other weeds, supper; heroin, ashes etc, ;; snacks; opium, heroin and any other weeds....what do these people do when they are high on these substances..unstoppable gene..ba guy can we use afaghanistan for an example for anything good..i dont know let me 4ne a friend, coz audience says no, but am not sure]]----->>>> errr..one member in the Audience objects
Assuming such a negative stereotype for typical Afghan diet lives a bitter taste in my mouth and makes me reminisce about the first people that I met here who assumed that before I left Africa (the jungle) and came to USA (civilization) all I used to do was sit around in the trees all day in the jungle and maybe hunt with no clothes on. With experiences like those, I cannot dare assume or make judgements about other cultures until I fully understand them. There surely is a positive example that we must be able to use Afghanistan for....otherwise we in Africa/Uganda might as well have been written off ages ago, what with all these stupid beliefs that we all have AIDS or are starving to death and are good for nothing.
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From: MSN Nicknameiam-w Sent: 5/1/2003 11:08 AM
Gali, It's just so sad that people around the world especially the states tend to continue to habour such negative mentalities about other continents especially Africa and Asia. On a sadder note though back home The former Minister of Information Basoga Nsadhu passed away last night of a heart attack or pnuemonia or something of the sort. Just thought u sh'd know.
On a merrier and more cranky note though, Gali, I don't blame those guys who thought that before you came to the states all u used to do is sit around in trees and swing all day looking for wild fruits and berries. Surely u can't blame them not after they'd seen those long hand and even longer fingers of yours. I'm sure guys who shared the Baco courts with you in Budo can bear witness!
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From: aiee Sent: 5/1/2003 2:31 PM
ingah!!
nice to hear ur view!!!
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From: Gali Sent: 5/1/2003 3:08 PM
Actually iamaw, I do not blame them either. I just ponder on the thought -->>>what-if they had had the nightmare of meeting you instead of me. What with your daily rituals of slashing ( I mean literally slashing here...slasher) your body hair only for it to re-grow in thirty minutes. For years you have successfully managed to hide your wild nature and identity in order to integrate into civilization through the auspices of King's College Budo. But wooluuuff..I warn you, your days are numbered and tinkering with me is only making them shorter, I might decide to expose the "wolf" in a sheep's skin...
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From: lynn Sent: 5/6/2003 12:15 PM
hey ingah,
why haven't you called me back??what did i do to deserve this!!!!anyway we shall resolve this some other time. back to the main issue. i think that abortion is murder regardless when you do it.so ingah call me we shall discuss this later.ok hun!!
Recommend Delete Message 32 of 32 in Discussion
From: Emily Sent: 6/5/2003 5:10 AM
A non-male view on abortion. I think they're three people directly involved in this issue, and if anything is to be said about it, the consequences that they face, on terminating or seeing a pregnancy to term, are what should be considered.
The mom, the featus, and the father - no order of significance is implied.
Personally, I abhor the idea of abortion unless there is a definate medical reason, and even that is another argument. Mothers today, at least in this part of the world, are given the option of testing their featus for various diseases, eg Down's Syndrome, so that they can decide whether or not they want the ill baby or not. Some might aruge that they wouldn't want a sickly child to be brought into suffering. Others that they merely acknowledge that they cannot shoulder the responsibility of raising a sickly child, probably for the whole of their (the parents') natural life.
Some women are raped and choose not to carry on with the pregnancy due to the nature of the child's conception. However, it is not unheard of for raped women to go on to be mothers, and love and care for their children.
In a more contemporary setting, women my age, beginning their lives and starting out in the workforce feel, and this is only some women, that they merely couldn't cope with children at that stage in their lives (Think 'Sex and the City - for those that are views!). My opinion is that that's merely a cop out. Don't want to have babies, use birth control. There's almost no excuse for unplanned pregnancies in this day and age. You can use pills, IUD's, diaphragms, injections (for both men and women), the classic condom, and now the patch! Even when these fail, I think there are other options, adoption being on of them. There are a great number of people that cannot have children and would walk the ends of the earth to raise a child that wasn't there own.
It is obvious that the featus has no say in the matter, and using the beginning of life as a measure as to whether or not it's 'feelings' should be considered is certainly futile. What is key, in my opinion, is the potential to be a human being that is vital. Whether it will spawn into Hitler or Mandela is beyond us. The giving of life is a department that should be left to the God's we serve. However, with that in mind, we should recognise that our responsibility is then to that human life. Nurturing it in all its physical, mental, emotional and spiritual aspects. If we feel that we cannot meet these obligations, then perhaps we should give someone else the priviledge of doing so.
Fathers are often left out of the decision on whether or not a pregnancy should be terminated. On the other hand, they are often known to demand it, of their partners. Most will claim, like the 'Sex and the City' girls, that they simply are not ready. I feel that that is a fair argument, and women should pay attention to this bse the children eventually grow up with the notion that they are unwanted. Whether or not this is a fatal handicap, is subject to argument. Many of us have been raised without fathers and have survived alright, bse our moms have worked desperately to see us through everything. Not all women have succeeded though, and ultimately, its the children that suffer, either by not having their basic needs met adequately, or by having to be stuck in the middle of their parents loveless union. All manner of things happen. The other side of the argument is that women don't stop to think that the father might be willing and happy to raise the child, and will see it through as long as is required.
The younger girls that get pregnant in school, etc,....mostly make the decision to terminate based on fear or what their parents mights say/do, on whether or not that child spells the end of their hopes and dreams.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the decision to terminate a pregnancy is very personal and thus subjective. It is important to have the right to choose, but whether or not the choices are moral is not a decision that there shall ever be any sort of universal agreement on.
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