Reply
Recommend Delete Message 1 of 18 in Discussion
From: da-pain (Original Message) Sent: 8/9/2002 12:40 PM
Should they go, or stay ???
Is Mugabe sane or insane???? Is this a remake of the "Amin-Asians kick-out"???
Is it for the good of Zim" as a country that these white farmers should go???
First Previous 4-18 of 18 Next Last Delete Replies
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 4 of 18 in Discussion
From: aiee Sent: 8/11/2002 4:35 PM
this issue of mugabe has divided africa right down the middle.there are
those of us who want empowerment of the indiginous african and there are
those of us who look at economic prosperity of the "dark" continent.
i believe these two things can be achieved.i hear what Mr balagadde is
trying to say. we need indiginous africans to be the driving forces or our
economies, we don't want to look at the madhavani's and the patels getting
the big monies we want to here of oryem, byamugisha and ssali hooking the
doh
pay attention for a while:
look at it this way. i look at prosperity in different airs. we can walk
down a road were the ideal africa is in a westernised state or we can live
our lives looking to africanise our prosperity.
naturally as africans we are socialists.we care so much about those facets
of life that really don't have to do with individual gratification but with
the uplifting of the community. for example, when we come to work in the
west we look at feeding,dressing and educating what may amount to small
"towns"-referring to how big our extended families can be- these ideals and
fundementals of african society constrain us from achieving
"westernisation" of our economies. prosperity out here is all about self
gratification.how do u go out of ur country and go to some other continent
and oppress the natives by taking away there most valued possession let
alone killing them and imposing on them ur corrupted ideals-this so called
democracy- and u still call urself human? u c as an african i cannot
understand that whereas the whiteman can very easily c no problem with it. i
believe some brutally abolished indigenous americans must be rolling in
there miserable mass burial sites.lets not even talk about the unceremonious
herded and intoxicated natives of australia.
this is the mentality which if-choosing carefully from buyi's vocabulary-i
may say is the driving force behind economic prosperity. if u look at it
carefully it is the originator of all the ills of "westernised economies".
in africa that is hard to come by.however with the advent of those "papers"
that seem to get u anything,we have seen an infilitration of these ills in
our society.
an african situation is where we empower the community.it is the sort of
ideals our distinguished independence fighters believed in. please name me
any non socialist independence fighter and i will show u a fox-put u hand up
wazabanga!!!!!-
returning to my point,we need capital and entrepenuers on the ground, not
greedy hungry men. u see these farms in zimbabwe r going to be handed-infact
have already been handed to-"big" shots.that is my main problem. rather than
have a good economy zimbabwe had the chance of empowering the indigenous
african. these farms were supposed to be divided into small plots, losing
there economic viability but still retaining the capacity to feed and
maintain a people free in there homeland.instead like in animal farm we r
just having,in the end, a change of guard. some animals are more equal than
others.these r even worse,via money matters,they r careless managers,good
eaters but careless managers-just check the state coffers of zimbabwe-
this is where i disagree with "comrade" Balagadde.
i beg to rest my case without even commenting on the on that brute of a man
that u have chosen to shower with praise.as a grieving relative of many who
lost there lives under the evil rule of that horse, i find it absurd to c
that one can think of his actions as honourable and empowering to population
that was being oppressed!
thank u very much
aiee
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 5 of 18 in Discussion
From: wyldude Sent: 8/12/2002 5:27 AM
Ya, as regards this issue, i in the strongest terms support that the white farmers leave Zimbabwe but they should be given somethin as way of compensation! ye know just to make it a little fare!
Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations Message 6 of 18 in Discussion
From: da-pain Sent: 8/12/2002 4:18 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 7 of 18 in Discussion
From: BALA Sent: 8/12/2002 4:59 PM
Interesting stuff!!!
The point comerade Aiee brought up is that when the ZIM WHITE FARMERS got chested, their property was given to the wrong people as political favors from the guy at the top... and not necessarily the right jombas. I guess this is corruption and it is not a problem of indeginous Africans managing their own resources. Indeginous African societies are collective in general simply because of low levels of technology. No one can survive on ones own... and sticking together is a survival tactic. But mechanization facilitates transition into individuality cause it allows for division of labor and specialization as well. So the more we develop as in mechanize, our need to live collectively will decrease. In short, we are absolutely capable of running capitalist ventures.
Putting personal issues aside, I think every man (or woman) ought to be judged according to his (or her) deeds and accomplishments. I agree that Amin was brutal... but then again, he was only striving to remain in power, like any other typical African leader. This is certainly not unique to his presidency. I mean he was uneducated and hence could devise no sophisticated ways to neutralize his political oponents or to clean up his mess. This is what made him look bad. But the fact that in his brief stay in office (8 years), this uneducated leader, who could even hardly speak english was able to run the country on cash (not loans) and accomplish so much. The average Ugandan during Amin's regime was happy and prosperous. I do not know how he did it and I think he deserves some credit. Honestly, speaking from a neutral point of view, I think Amin was a genius.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 8 of 18 in Discussion
From: aiee Sent: 8/12/2002 8:11 PM
today if alex u watched channel 4 news they showed this white guy who was swearing mbu his going to stay on his 4000 acres.now if u know land measurements this figure is mind boggling. imagine we-just me and u-owned london...the heart of this economy,remember we r bloods-foreigners-that would be raping these guys right bang infront of the sheriff. like them white farmers r doing to our bros! i agree they should all crawl to prince charles who-if u read in today's "the mail"-is asking blair to get them something to start on when they come here!
i would also like to remind u that this mugabe fella of urs is a great fun of harods...his wife-who happens to be a clean 40yr young than the dude,is his second and was his secretary-is quite extravagant in her spending. i admit some of these chics can be tricky but hey mandela got rid of a murderer and got himself a quality and seasoned liberation fighter. she is so demanding that via the state coffers they constructed her a place which is named after her "Graceland". he himself is chewing the colour.
however i admit that ur last paragraph has left me blick.
Mr balagadde,it is strange that only yesterday as me and my bro,sis and mom were leaving church mom told us of how in the seventies she always believed and hoped for a better uganda,she says she hasnn't yet seen it and she is afraid that she may never see it. funny that she placed herself in the seventies not even inthe sixties!! M7 always gives the example of Korea.in 1966 our economy wa larger the south korea's, now we cannot even think of rolling with those boys. all the money that was ur brute did eat as cash, how many industries were left functioning? my friend let me tell u something....do u know the namboole stadium was a contract signed by obote in his first term of office? do u know that all uganda's recognised hospital were built in the 60's? all that cash u talk about was just like the way we don't feel el nino during its occurance but boy do the after effects hit us hard!! apart from old k'la's unfinished minerat please show me a significant postive remind of the famous self distinguished conquerer of the british empire?
i was in spain last academic yr.let me tell u a bit about spain. it is the world's eighth largest economy. i will also say that i don't place mediterranean countries like spain in the west. i saw ur so called division of labour but boy i never saw that individualist whatever u say. they beleive in society and community like we do by some how they have one of the world's top economies!!
it is unfortunate that u tie our great community cultural values to low standards of technology! the pain and the sadness of the state of unfullfilled life in the west is due to those individualist ideals u talk about...i have seen better people else where...this model doesn't apply to our way of living!
now let me give u guys a bit of history...when the british handed over to ian smith there was a contract whereby the british govt would compensate the white boys and the land would be redistruibuted amongest the blacks. however this process whenever it would be effected would cripple an economy based on agriculture. unlike zambia and SA and angola that have great natural resourses zim's ecomony was only dependant on agric and tourism. this was good for mugabe and his cronies then with the doh coming in.but the war veterans started making noise wanting there cut of the deal. they had been promised hefty chunks of land during the redistruibution.
now when the war in congo reignited mugabe who with his big generals had signed hefty deals to supply congo's army with gear in return for mining rights,thought that was large enough cause to sacrifice a nation!
however as the war went on it looked like it was going to be long haul... all the armies on both sides were inexperianced at fighting long national conflicts...and so all the generals on both sides did not look at that prospect, this hit zimbabwe hardest because it had the largest numbers of foreign troops on kabila side and yet did not even share a common border. unlike the uganda rwanda angola and sudan, mugabe's boys had not even been in war situations for over 15 yrs. well if u don't count the ndebele massacre. they were dying for a casue that was not beneficial to te nation.the US $1million spent by mugabe per day on this adventure did not help his cause in supressing an increasingly vocal veterans assocation. othewr trade unions and groups joined in.mugabe had to find away of keeping them quite...he went head first into this land redistruibution thing to save his political life! that is where it all got so hot! he thought satisfying the needs of the veterans he would use them as a civilian militia to quiten other civil groups!! the veterans were trained killers experianced and good at there job!
this is the background to what has been going on for the past 2yrs!
i need my bed now!
Gakyali mabaga
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 9 of 18 in Discussion
From: aiee Sent: 8/12/2002 8:14 PM
sorry guys wa writing while chatting with kwame...the time frame ought to be of th12th
Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations Message 10 of 18 in Discussion
From: da-pain Sent: 8/13/2002 11:02 AM
This message has been deleted by the author.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 11 of 18 in Discussion
From: BALA Sent: 8/13/2002 2:14 PM
When slave trade was abolished, the Negroes in America were given "lorov" land (on the order of thousands of acres, although I am not sure about this figure)... but they never saw this land. This is another group of people that I respect... They have raised their status from being slaves (property that is owned, leased, sold etc) to being the most educated, and economically influencial people of African decent in the world. They had absolutely no means to figt back or to get even.... but they have moved one step at a time.
Now comerade Aiee as you requested, here is a few statistics, just to illustrate my point. Amin set in place the Uganda Airlines, Uganda house in the UK, Uganda house in New York City etc... This property was paid for in cash. To date, it can not be afforded, let alone maintained. Isn't this amazing! Soon, we shall hear that it has been sold to foreigners or privatized. Western education has shielded us from this side of Amin. Although there is reason to criticize Amin, there is also reason to give him credit.
So if Mugabe's move backfires, it will not be because indeginous indeginous Africans are running the economy... It will be because of corruption. It will be because the right Africans for the job are never given the chance to prove themselves. Even those that have proved themselves at their trade are never given a chance to perform their job for their country because of political differences and fears. Excellence is neither rewarded nor recognized. In the end, surely enough, the companies are run down, devalued and are making so much losses that the only resolution is to privatize.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 12 of 18 in Discussion
From: aiee Sent: 8/13/2002 3:36 PM
back on the mic!! mugabe did go into Congo with agenda. if u want i can get u the detials of the transactions he had on the line that were so personal and worth millions of dollars,they would have dug a massive hole is his pocket if he didn't go in! there is a connection boys, a big one!! Even our own boys fuuna-ed out there.they also had a program!
Grace is two faced!! did i mention the state fuel she used to burn to come on these shopping trips? ofcourse these were all expenses paid trips!! i find a problem with that.
guys i agree the white boys should bust but not leave us in trouble. last yr i listened to a BBC radio documentary about whether Uganda got her independence at the right time! all disagreed because as much as the civil service was already professional the army needed abit of work on it! the political scene had been left as battle ground for those religious scwabbles the europeans had brought with them. we have not healed as a country from the devastating time of the seventies which many of u seem to look at a s Ug's golden era and we now witness a one party system in ug-call it what u may but even though the wolf be in a sheperds skin it still won't chew on the grass,if u get my point-.
related to my point just because Ebyaffe should be returned it doesn't need to be to anybody at anytime!! it needs careful treatment. please go back to Goerge Orwell and realise that we can heal the memories and pains of the past and kill a second bird by resolving issues in a way that may help us avoid future problems that will have been a result of what we may do today.
i want us guys to talk about the SA case. it is similar in all aspects to the Zim case but please let us look at Thabo's manourves and compare them to ronnie's.! there r big lessons to learn out there!!
the night is still young!! please fire back...just gone to catch a bit!
Gakyali mabaga!!
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 13 of 18 in Discussion
From: BALA Sent: 8/13/2002 7:35 PM
Man... the congo was another mess.
But on one hand Kabils Sr. is to blame for the mess. He tried to bite the hand that fed him. These guys had put him in power... it was not professional for him to wake up in the morning and decide to chest them.
I also doubt that Uganda got her independence at the right time. In fact, our independence was some sort of a trade off. During the cold war, it was easy for the Soviet Union to swing the support of the colonized countries to its side... So the US pressured the Europeans to grant us independence, at least on paper. Besides, why not exploit Africa in a legitimate way.... enslave us in our own land. And in a way, we are not independent.
As for South Africa, when the white boys saw themselves going out of power, they decided to privatize the economy. They sold everything to themselves cause they were the guys with the big bucks. So now, you have a government with political but not economic power... a government that could easily go bankrupt... And in reality, the guys with the gold make the rules. In a way when government reaches a point that it needs the money, it will have to give them favors.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 14 of 18 in Discussion
From: BALA Sent: 8/18/2002 10:57 PM
Man guys....
I just watched a TV story on "60 minutes" about the poor Zim" White farmers. Now guys, I noticed that Mugabe decorated himself to look just like Hitler... only that he is still black. You know... the tihin, symmetric moustache and those bizzare eyebrows that give him an Eagle look... kinda like Adolf Hitler himself. More interesting is the fact that one of his pointmen was nicknamed "Hitler." Guys... to be honest, I take back what I said about Mugabe. There are facts to justify his actions... but the means he as chosen to execute his agenda are just too insane! Despicable!
One could mess with black folks with impunity... but Mugabe has messed with the wrong people; white, hardworking Farmers. I do not think the west will just look on and pretend not to care. This guy is in for a serious beating on the economic and political front!
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 15 of 18 in Discussion
From: Emily Sent: 8/21/2002 3:00 PM
If I've read correctly, I'll be the only person that whole-heartedly disagrees with Mugabe.
I've said the same thing to an English citizen I know that is always complaining about the influx of Pakistanis, and other non-Anglo Saxons. You've let them come this far so you should be willing to accomodate them! Perhaps the comparison is not that accurate, but let me explain. The British that complain that these foreigners don't pay tax (bse they're doing cash-in-hand jobs ie cab-driving, etc), but go on to claim social assistance, put their kids through public school, etc, should have been more willing to do the 'dirty' work! Now that someone else has managed to make something out of it, there's a problem?!!
There is obviously some benefit in having white farmers in Zimbabwe, a lot of it stemming from the fact that they manage their businesses much better than the natives of Zimbabwe. If this were not the case, by definition, the white farmers would not be that successful. If the argument is then that the 'locals' do not have the land to begin with, or that profits are being repatriated excessively, then what Mugabe needs to be doing is either taxing these farmers heavily, or revising his labour laws to ensure that locals get as much acess to work on these farms. Land laws obviously need to be revised as well! Limit the amount of land they can have,..etc! There are plenty on sensible ways to deal with this.
Aiee mentioned corruption, and I couldn't agree with him more. We don't have to look very far,...I'm sure Kagu ideally hoped to elevate our nation to 'acceptable' levels of development,...but the desperation and greed that our people are faced with has meant that we more often than not, we make this impossible with our self-serving motives. I'm not sure how the physical existance of Amin's buildings in the US, etc, have done this nation any good. Did they serve the man at the bottom of the barrel? How Socialist is that?!
Mugabe might have started out with the right idea,..Keep the wealth within our borders',...but if the people within the borders cannot generate that wealth, then what is he going on about?! Do you think that the people that are going to recieve this land are going to be as productive? And whilst I realise that some have argued that bse we have been kept in the dark we are unable to pick up these skills,...I find that argument to be rather defeatist. Any one of us can safely understand how a business should be run to be successful. How a farm, within reasonable size, productivity, etc, can be well managed. Are we willing to see these things through, or do we rather see money rush into our hands.
We need to examine ourselves a bit more. Our nationalist dreams, socialism, etc,...we have a very long way to go, and I feel that oft time we try too hard to get to the end of the rainbow, without struggling through it. I've said it before, and now I say it with even more conviction,..if we are 'tomorrow's leaders', we've got to be more open minded. We have weakness, and rather stubbornly hold onto idealistic rumblings, we should be self-examining and progressive.
If Mugabe wants to keep his seat as president, he needs to show better results, instead of throwing his nation onto a path of obvious uncertainty (I'm not sure how something uncertain can be obvious, but you know what I mean!!!)
I would like to say so much more, but I have to get back to work,.....
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 16 of 18 in Discussion
From: aiee Sent: 8/22/2002 2:53 AM
da pain, bala and the rest please say something...at long last i have got someone with a progressive view come up and join the discussion.not to take away from what u brothers have been banging on about but i see sense and not ideals in what this lady is saying.
let me get a rest and i will come back with something big!! brothers and sisters i urge u to contribute because emily has brought up a big side point. We r the leaders of tomorrow...this forum is one way of learning by exchange of ideas. this is a message to silent burners especially!
Gakyali mabaga
Reply
The number of members that recommended this message. 0 recommendations Message 17 of 18 in Discussion
From: BALA Sent: 8/23/2002 2:40 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 18 of 18 in Discussion
From: da-pain Sent: 8/24/2002 1:17 PM
Aiee, I comfortably agree with the idea that as 2moroz leaders we have to be open minded, like the lady mentioned... and she said that mugabe to emerge as a successful leader, he should carry out, stuff like land reform;; God help a nation; This mugabe guy sings that same song now and again, Land reforms is what he is doing and pressing for, if i can be more specific..infact I think, this is one way of land reform, only that it is more bold and risky than the rest..
fine, she suggests stunts like taxing these white farmers heavily, or even creating avenues for more black people to take up employment on these farms;;
I want to first and foremost remind you that, NO WAY AND NEVER CAN THE WHITE MAN TAKE A JUST FOOTING, WHEN IT COMES TO HIM AND THE BLACK MAN; HISTORYHAS PROVED THIS. I am more than convinced if Mugabe decides to set new laws concerning these white farmers, Blair will push him behind closed doors and twist his hand asking him to make it softer for the zim' white farmer or no more aid jets in to zimbabwe,,
I understand this notion bought by many educated or learned comrades, that; TREAT YOUR BOSS/SUPERIOR WITH CARE OR ELSE YOU MISS YOUR DINNER AND STARVE..
But honestly how long shall this go on, that we as black people can no way make our own decission without the insecurity of this so called "richer white man has to gain"... Banange, this guy controls our everything;; I think some of us shall have to be sacrifices atleast to have our descedants not live as either political or economical slaves, and it is in line with this BIG DREAM that i respect the likes of Mugabe..
I will not take the naive-path of believing there are no uncertainities awaiting Zimbabwe, BUT amidst the famine, if all african combined efforts wouldn't we surely rescue a nation.. Besides, if we stopped fighting against ourselves, who would need all those dollars in loans just to buy the riffles and bullets from the same bastards. And if we stopped, wouldn't we save, if we stopped being greedy, stealing and saving in swiss banks and then our accounts ending up frozen by the same buffuns, surely wouldn't we be far, I AGREE WE HAVE THE SOLUTION AND WE FIRST HAVE TO BOLDLY TAKE THIS STEP TO SHOW THE WHITEMAN, WE HAVE SHALL TAKE THAT WHICH IS OUR HERITAGE..and our eyes have been opened!!
I AM MORE THAN CONVINCED, THIS SUDDEN LENIENCE MOST OF U FICTIOUSLY HAVE WITH THE ZIM' FARMERS, IS SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE SCARED, THE WEST WILL CLOSE ITS DOORS TO ZIMBABWE..much as I think this will have grave impact on many lives in Zimbabwe, I insist, that, us as Africans can stand with him, or atleast not condem him. If we are not bold enough, i suggest we just shut up;; and like Blair lost his campaign to kick the guy out of the commonwealth, I am sure, our combined effort shall someway save a life in Zimbabwe,, I know this is the strangest of all solutions, BUT STILL TWENTY YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, WE SHALL NOT GET COMMENTS LIKE, "THE ZIMBABWIAN BLACKMAN IS JUST A SPECTACTOR TO THE GROWING ZIM' AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY"
0 comments:
Post a Comment