| From: Habeeb (Original Message) | Sent: 12/2/2002 5:37 PM |
Just take my word, of all the countries i have visited in the EU, i must seriously warn you if u are black,!France is okay as they r lots of migrants from Congo, and most of west africa, so is belgium, Uk, self explanatory, commonwealth citizens have made this place a temporary home, but Spain! Spain is filled with migrants from north africa ie morocco and tunisia, a black person with a job or enjoying the usual social life is a rare occurence, all black people i came across or saw are dubious looking and are evidently illegal immigrants,as they are selling cds recorded in triplicate, the airport at barcelona isnt friendly to non eu citizens especially if u are from africa ie zimbabwe, u cant easily talk to someone in spain as they will think you are planning a great robbery, it sounds a usual thing but just take caution whils u are there,
.....apart from that, the weather is good!
| From: aiee | Sent: 12/3/2002 2:02 PM |
going to adventure we shall be faced with these obstacles. i want to c the
world, but i am not going to be stopped b'se of my colour! yes i will brand
the spanish in their country racist but i will also tell u y.
spain was a fascist country for a long time. they have only been a democracy
since 82. the society was brought up along the lines of oppresion ands
belief in supriority amongst the human race by virtue of physical
attributes. for u who may not know, spain was part of hitler's clic!!
however they have managed to export these ideals to south america.whilst the
world war was going on, the gov'ts of argentina, brazil, uruguay and chile
turned a blind eye to what was going on in europe b'se the white man there
had already established a program like the nazis were looking to better. if
you go to rio, u will be suprised! there places where u may think u are
walking thru the riviera, but then u will also c kisenyi style slums where
prositutions is the way forward-aids has basically ruined the economy of
brasil-. i will also add that almost all the nazi bad boys went down to this
place and up to now some live untouched on the riches they robbed from the
jews they tortured. you will find big country towns were german is the
official language.
the spanish were the last to stop slave trading! for them life of a lesser
human can be an instrument to generate fun! it is believed that the idea of
the "circus" gladiator and all originates from spain. up to now u have bull
fighting the most inhumain sport i have witnessed being the national sport
of spain and much of latin america. also after every hunting season it is
customary to hang the hunting dogs in fields, it is an abominable sight to
witness.
however i believe there is hope. recently lula and that colonel in paraguay
became the latest leftist to take power in a continent that has been ruled
for a long time by xenophobes. i believe for the indigenous pple of south
america hope is nigh.
spain is still far away.its economy has suffered over the last 25 years.
the emergence of america as the major super power led to spain losing its
strong hold on latin american markets. countries no longer looked up to
their colonial masters but leading economies for trade and aid partnerships.
the economy of spain began to fail and actually that is y democracy came in.
with this however came an image change. spain wants to be a major player in
europe, though only the 7th world's largest economy, it is not evenly
distrubuted and many are jobless and live well below the poverty line.i.e it
is a poor country. it has continously received aid from the EU to bolster
its living standards and ofcourse EU directives have been stringent so as to
bring most of southern europe(greece, cyprus italy and spain) to the the
economic standards of their nothern counterparts. seen as the gateway of
illegal immigrants,one of the directives has been to do away with illegal
immigrants. many immigrants just use spain as a gateway to get to places
like england and so spain didn't really care! now they do! b'se of the Eu
and their-the spanish- oppressive nature! what a potent mixture.
however don't fear i say! u must conquer! i hate all these weakling thoughts
and statements i have read today. for what u pay u should receive the
desired product! if anyone travels and some sterwardess or waiter gives u
stick, walk away don't pay! or throw a tatrum!! these are some of the ways
we can be heard! nowadays some of us have the dough,it speaks, flash it!
i will be back!
| From: Solo | Sent: 12/3/2002 3:03 PM |
eh! thats more racism than there is in any other place i know.
Im changing my mind about going to Spain. I dont wanna be treated like
filth.
| From: Mark | Sent: 12/3/2002 7:23 PM |
I thought guys had banged gas about the site but its good to see guys are still there.Was it katabo? Man aiee, I was reading all that stuff you wrote and eh I was surprised.You know I watched the MTV Europe awards with the P.Diddy's having a ball and inviting all the Espaniolas to his bash yet they could have probably been despising him.So aiee, does this mean you are not going back to Spain at all??
guys, i said yesterday that i will re link on this issue...what i did is i
gave u the background and argued what the reasons where the spanish seemed
to be like they are. now in general they are not as good as england and US-i
am not sure- on race relations, but don't be put off by all these
negativities! visit the place and have ur fun! go in a group i would advice!
act with caution b'se they are bloody insenstive to u!! they see u as a
parasite. we r the new-generation-one-nation pple! we cannot allow fear to
ruin our progress. pple make noise about race but until u have been out of
england france and the US u may never know how much other pple have it
rough! well-travelled spanish are aware of the major problem in there
country. if u press them hard they will probably tell u that u may have a
horrid reception once i get there. even many other poeple in many other
european countries will tell u the same. i am trying to say that we have
alot of work to do as a people, otherwise we may never move on! i look
forward to the day i will walk into a shop and the security aren't on their
tip toes! i await the moment when young black pple will be given equal
treatment to young whites that choose to do round the world trips! y is it
that iam asked to pay for first class treatment and i am treated second
class? if we don't stand, we shall continue to be down. i have already made
a point to this uni-i must add that uni of Bristol is considered elitist!- y
if i am paying thru my nose can't i go abroad and enjoy the same pleasures
of those who r paying nothing? i asked the uni that qn and they knew the
answer would be racist so they had no choice but to let me go and in so
doing threw me to the wind! they haven't apologised for throwing me to the
wind but they will soon c my steam if they don't appreciate me as a person.
in this day, when students round the uk are matching in london against the
increment of student fees,we can also make our own stand against injustices
born on us because of my colour! come on guys go to these countries and show
them all your papers that are legal to the bone, order a taxi, eat in the
classy resturants and live large!!!!!
yes i will go back to spain ASAP.i don't run away from a challenge! i plan
to return there every yr atleast!i am planning,if i can get colour to tour
south america! i know it's abit risky but i am not lying down like my any
other kid i have my dreams! come on guys our ancestors went thru worse
situations!!!
i will re link!
| From: aiee | Sent: 12/4/2002 8:46 AM |
gave u the background and argued what the reasons where the spanish seemed
to be like they are. now in general they are not as good as england and US-i
am not sure- on race relations, but don't be put off by all these
negativities! visit the place and have ur fun! go in a group i would advice!
act with caution b'se they are bloody insenstive to u!! they see u as a
parasite. we r the new-generation-one-nation pple! we cannot allow fear to
ruin our progress. pple make noise about race but until u have been out of
england france and the US u may never know how much other pple have it
rough! well-travelled spanish are aware of the major problem in there
country. if u press them hard they will probably tell u that u may have a
horrid reception once i get there. even many other poeple in many other
european countries will tell u the same. i am trying to say that we have
alot of work to do as a people, otherwise we may never move on! i look
forward to the day i will walk into a shop and the security aren't on their
tip toes! i await the moment when young black pple will be given equal
treatment to young whites that choose to do round the world trips! y is it
that iam asked to pay for first class treatment and i am treated second
class? if we don't stand, we shall continue to be down. i have already made
a point to this uni-i must add that uni of Bristol is considered elitist!- y
if i am paying thru my nose can't i go abroad and enjoy the same pleasures
of those who r paying nothing? i asked the uni that qn and they knew the
answer would be racist so they had no choice but to let me go and in so
doing threw me to the wind! they haven't apologised for throwing me to the
wind but they will soon c my steam if they don't appreciate me as a person.
in this day, when students round the uk are matching in london against the
increment of student fees,we can also make our own stand against injustices
born on us because of my colour! come on guys go to these countries and show
them all your papers that are legal to the bone, order a taxi, eat in the
classy resturants and live large!!!!!
yes i will go back to spain ASAP.i don't run away from a challenge! i plan
to return there every yr atleast!i am planning,if i can get colour to tour
south america! i know it's abit risky but i am not lying down like my any
other kid i have my dreams! come on guys our ancestors went thru worse
situations!!!
i will re link!
| From: bryo | Sent: 12/4/2002 10:27 AM |
man aiee, sorry bout ur hard time in spain. i haven't experienced much racism here in UK except of course security guards always watching me in shops. oh yeah, and some guys shouted some racial slurs at me from their speeding car. i guess this is an issue that is here for a while longer but thank God things are better than in the old days i.e. 60s time of MalcolmX
| From: Elison | Sent: 12/4/2002 11:12 AM |
wow wow wow!
aiee what an experience...it may have left u as poor as a church mouse but as brave as a lion a and as wise as a certain solomon. your postings have left us shocked bewildered and even inspired...4 such a long time zungus have been riding on our backs.we have been despised 4 too long. it is time we stand up and straighten our backs because a man cant ride your back unless its bent!
anyways gotta run...
| From: Habeeb | Sent: 12/4/2002 1:32 PM |
recently turning into my mid twenties i decided to travel to as many countries as i could b4 its too late, i have been to spain twice this year, within 7 weeks, but i got such a bad impression, in the summer i had the chance to go to cyprus..a country with a currency stronger than the british pound and strongly applying to join the eu....meaning cypriots will come to london and nnot need visas to work....cyprus is different, its hot and they are many black people..mostly tourists from the uk and the usa, ayia napa is very lively 24/7!!!!!and everyones having fun, black people are very welcome as they are a magnet to the opposite sex..whatever reasons...dont ask me...go there yourself, average temperature 40C during may-late october; i was impressed with cyprus and it will be nice visiting the greek islands soon.
if u cant easily get a visa to get to spain, its simple buy a ticket via paris, and apply for a visa through the french embassy, u get it there and then,...its abit unfair, 1200 iraqis have been admitted from france and granted 4year work permits, people with no papers, probably no education, but let a graduate from uganda ready to pay taxes apply for a work permit and its obvious, u will be asked to kindly leave, i didnt understand the uks move on that iraqi thing?!!!!
| From: ralph | Sent: 12/4/2002 8:31 PM |
Eiii mwana that was a very bad experienceto say the least i couldnot believe something like that could happen in a country like Spain which unfortunately counts itself among the civilised western democracies.
One would have thought that by the fall of apertheid in South africa the "western world" had learnt some lessons and took substantive measures to root racism out of society. I was actually thinking about spain as one of my next holiday destinations but this picture i'm getting does not further spain's chances as my holiday destination anymore. I indeed appreciate the idea of having to stand up to this 18th century practise but if it gets down to choosing where to enjoy your holiday savings, i wouldn't opt for spain.
I've always wondered why people call the British very hospitable and all those good things and yet it is becoming very difficult for me and many of my collegues to break into the bar, the last time i was in a court session at the Old Bailey it all looked like i was in a totally different place with my senior Barrister the only person to chat with. To be honest i felt i was like an S2 having to enter an S6 class by this terrible accident !! well atleast now i know the British ae not comparable to the nasty Spanish, i will have to live with them -but only for a short while anyway.
| From: Ash | Sent: 12/8/2002 3:20 PM |
Guys,..whatagwan? (am trying to learn some little Jamican)Any, those postings you guys are offering to some of us are very important since we are only begining to travel. I have only been in the Uk for afew weeks now and since this is my first foreign country to be in, i have little to offer about the subject. I am how ever interested in this subject for in not too long a time,i would also love to travel round and round and round and therefore your experience and advice is very impotant. As for my 'badde' Aiee, that experience is only doing you good, and that applies to everyone how's being treated unfairly and i can assure you one day all will be alright.
Habbeb,Aiee, is there any way i can get your contacts for further questions?
Thanx
| From: zurkov | Sent: 12/18/2002 1:41 PM |
Uhm Aiee, Habeeb y'all paint such a bad picture of Spain pero ya se que disfrutasteis de estar con todas estas senioritas bellisimas! No? Anyway let the truth be told, wherever you go there will be racists, that includes Runkingiri, Aiee and I say this from personal experience as I went touring there with a couple of English friends! When I was in England my economics professor, Andy Kumalo, had been a prisoner Mandela in apatheid SA. Despite his obvious animus for the white man, he too concurred that we are just as racist. Whats even more intriguing is that the peoples most affected by racism i.e. blacks and Jews seem to be the most racist!
Now back to the Espanioles racistas ! Yes I too have been walking on the street in Madrid and seen OLDER women crouch for their bags! Once I was about to explain to a lady that my semesterly expenses in Madrid were 20 times the average annual income of the Spanish! That said, I dont blame them because as you astutely pointed out, most of "us" there, are into mischief!
My experience was quite distinct from yours, however. I loved the country a lot and there is no where in Europe I'd rather be! I mean face it, they are the perfect Hedonists(born to party), the girls have a touch of moor blood in them so they got butts and curves plus a complexion that is an Aryan vs. Acholi compromise (capuccino). What else could you ask for?(I know Balokole appreciate this too, Aiee
).
).And the Moors are infact the major reason why the elderly hate anything darker! Those damn north Africans came in, conquered them (they are very patriotic by the way) and thereafter seduced all their women. They should be grateful though, cause most of them dont need that much tanning to attain the "ideal" complexion!!
As for Habeeb's assertion that France is "OK". I dont think you could be more wrong! Have you forgotten that Le Pen almost won the presidency on a promise to expel all immigrants? I am quite sure if it weren't for all the footie maniacs who feared the demise of the "French" national team, he would have won! Plus I have a tonne of horror stories from people who have been there long enough!
When its all said and done, I think your opinion of wherever you ended should be shaped by a cost-benefit analysis. Were you happy more than you were sad? That kind of thing. You can't let the one moron you met in a government office or in Santiago Bernabeu spoil your kharma! Because as you might have noted, good and evil, love and hate, infinity and zero all share the same space as they exist only in mutual relativity!!!
| From: Gali | Sent: 12/18/2002 5:46 PM |
But Balaba, I just did my Philosophy final and you are taking my back to relativism and hedonists... Anyway, interesting stuffs. However, a few questions still.
Can a minority be racist? What would you consider racist? Wouldn't you describe it as oppression or segregation of a minority? So when you talk of black people being the most racist, that does not go down well with me. Considering the past atrocities that have befallen us, surely you do not expect a black man in this world to take the world with open arms and smile like history is just another bed-time story. Therefore, I think that Andy Kumalo meant to say that since we (blacks and jews) have been mistreated from the past i.e. slave trade and holocaust respectively; we have developed a thicker outer skin that makes us view the world with caution...which could be misinterpreted as racism. Like the saying goes, once beaten, twice shy.
| rom: zurkov | Sent: 12/18/2002 11:32 PM |
Gali, let me start by saying I am really sorry you still have philosophy exams to do! I am quite happy giving Mr. PentiumIV tasks that take him two and half hours to run while using up 100% RAM. Anyway, to each his own!! So can a minority be a racist? HELL YEAH! So what/who is a racist anyway? This is what dictionary.com says: 1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race. So as you can see all it takes is believing that for example "the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice"! What you said reminds me so much of the brothers here! They did this and that to us bla bla bla, Well, yeah they did? The question you have to ask yourself now is, so what? Am I going to be held down by what happened 2 centuries with some scattered occurances to the present day? I say no, I say we got to be defiant! Not physically defiant as that is what the guys here tend to do, but mentally defiant. Let us let our props/skills/talents/ethics speak for us. And if they are not loud enough, we just have to keep working; channelling our energy to what makes us better! That has worked for me so far! But may be I have been lucky along the way as well but hey... p.s thicker outer skin: if it makes us more impervious to adversity bring it on! If it makes us more repugnant to the rest of the world, uhmmm . |
| From: BALA | Sent: 12/19/2002 1:04 AM |
The way I see it, racism and all that stuff is intricately linked to economic factors. The fear that there might not be enough resources for everyone causes humans to try and prosper as a distinct kind eg as whites, as mulattoes, as a given tribe etc... Secondly, societies in general will always look for a scapegoat: a group of people on which all the problems of the society can be blamed. In the US, it's the blacks... in countries like Greece and Yugoslavia, it's the Albanians... etc
For Example,
Some time back (70's I think), the US congress made a list of types of people that the government had to watch out for... people that were supposedly "detrimental" to the society in general (the scapegoat). This list included people like; drug-dealers, prosties, thugs, thieves etc... They also added the CHINESE onto this list. But that was then. Todate, because of their brain power, chinese are imported to US top institutions in droves. So in a way it's all about Bargaining power.
Honestly, I have always been treated extremely well in all the countries I have been to... and in a way, better than Uganda itself so I can not relate to bad racial experiences.
Meanwhile, here in stato, it seems as if Racism still has a strong hold. For example, the senate majority leader, Trent Lott recently made racist comments that revealed his true nature. Paul Oneal, the former treasury secretary, who showed some concern for Africans by visiting Africa, was asked to resign. Affirmative action is on the verge of suffocation. Blacks were deliberately prevented form voting in the previous presidential elections. I was also suddened by the way the former presidend Clinton was treated (like a black boy) because of his friendship with blacks.
donde has estado? hace mucho tiempo sin oyendo de ti! i completely agree
with you. that is y if you read what i wrote i tried as much as possible to
emphasise the point that p'ple shouldn't be put off going to spain. it has
wanders to behold! it is a great place to be! i was on the south east coast
in valencia and had brilliant sunshine even when it was cold in
madrid.u,having been a madrileno will understand that it is a cosmopolitan
city, quite european in test. by this i mean, if you live in london, it
could be different to living in say belfast! y? b'se the guys in belfast r
not as open to foreigners as the londoners are. for those of u in england i
read the Guardian paper( the observer on sundays), there was an article on
the 8th dec. this yr,(pg 12 & 13) that was interesting. it just helps me to
drive home the point that the place you are at in that country,sort of
governs the amount of racism you'll face and what kind it will be.
as u-zurkov- have said, please guys, don't highlight what i said! there r
great things down there. Zurkov has highlighted the muchachitas! the life
out there is just to much fun!!!! it takes you away from the rush and bustle
of the life in the west!give it a go.
| From: aiee | Sent: 12/19/2002 11:20 AM |
donde has estado? hace mucho tiempo sin oyendo de ti! i completely agree
with you. that is y if you read what i wrote i tried as much as possible to
emphasise the point that p'ple shouldn't be put off going to spain. it has
wanders to behold! it is a great place to be! i was on the south east coast
in valencia and had brilliant sunshine even when it was cold in
madrid.u,having been a madrileno will understand that it is a cosmopolitan
city, quite european in test. by this i mean, if you live in london, it
could be different to living in say belfast! y? b'se the guys in belfast r
not as open to foreigners as the londoners are. for those of u in england i
read the Guardian paper( the observer on sundays), there was an article on
the 8th dec. this yr,(pg 12 & 13) that was interesting. it just helps me to
drive home the point that the place you are at in that country,sort of
governs the amount of racism you'll face and what kind it will be.
as u-zurkov- have said, please guys, don't highlight what i said! there r
great things down there. Zurkov has highlighted the muchachitas! the life
out there is just to much fun!!!! it takes you away from the rush and bustle
of the life in the west!give it a go.
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